Their tweet that caught my attention was this:
"If Christianity is true, Atheists are playing a very dangerous game. If Atheism is true, there is no point in playing the game."
At the time of writing some 411 people had, I think somewhat bizarrely, liked this tweet. I guess they thought it was profound or clever or...something.
It's Pascal's Wager, and has been debunked time and time again, so I don't need to go over it here. In fact, I'm very confident you can debunk Pascal's wager yourself.
I visited the twitter page of 'Adherent Apologetics' to see what the had to say for themselves. They are American, which will come as no surprise to anyone, and they are young (18 according to their bio) so I can understand the naivety of what they post. I hope they learn to think a bit more critically as they age.
One post I noticed was titled '5 questions for non-believers'. So I thought, to help them out, I'd answer them. I'm not sure they'll ever read this post, as they don't seem to actually engage with anyone. Perhaps they're just a couple of guys running a bot, I'm not sure.
1: Where did the universe come from?
This is a regular one we atheists get asked. I have a lot of problems with it. It's asked as though the universe travelled here from somewhere else. A much better phrasing would be 'how did the universe come to be in its current state?'
Theists seem to ask this question thinking they've got the answer and if an atheists can't explain it in minute scientific detail, then 'god did it' must be the correct answer.
As with anything, though, if I don't know, but you have a guess, your guess isn't right by default. Whether I can or cannot explain how the universe came to be as it is, has no bearing on the existence of any gods or goddesses at all.
We know protons pop into and out of existence, without cause. We also know that the expansion of the universe means it was once all packed together. All the initial matter in the universe was contained in a tiny point we call the singularity, and we know we have a zero sum universe (IE the energy and matter are countered by dark energy and dark matter). What all this means is that it's possible for the universe to exist without having been created. The actual explanation is very long and technical, and I'm not sure anyone fully understands it. One thing I do understand for sure is that when talking about how the universe came to be as it is, no relevant scientists say 'here is the point where God must have created the universe.' If you know enough about the origin of the universe, you know we live in a 'no gods required' universe.
2: Where do you find your identity?
When I read this question, I simply thought 'In my wallet...' But that's not really what they're after. Thankfully they provide a bit of an explanation as to why they're asking each question. That helped here because I've no idea why they'd ask this if it wasn't explained.
The lads claim this is a great question to ask someone when you want to understand what matters to someone. Apparently it can also lead to a great conversation.
I don't think you find your identity, I think you create it. To me this question reinforces the idea that sometimes theists don't think for themselves. I'm guessing, but I'm confident, these guys would say they find their identity in church, or in the bible, or in the love of god. Thinking you create your own identity, however, shows the independent thinking of an atheist. It's not about being told by an authority (real or imagined) who you are, it's about realising that for yourself.
3: How Should we live?
Another kind of vague, oddly worded question from these fellas. Got to remember, they are young, so they're quite possibly thinking they've hit on the ultimate question, when, in reality, they simply haven't. In the explanation to this question they assume the answer coming back will be something like 'make the world a better place'. They then say they understand, but ask what's the point of doing this if everyone just dies at the end.
My answer isn't 'to make the world a better place'. Instead, I think if we live good lives, the world automatically becomes a better place. To the extent where it's possible, treat people with kindness and respect. Try to do no harm. Try to minimise any negative impact you have on the environment. Never set out to make someone's day worse. Help others when you're willing and able. I like the 'golden rule' (versions of which predate the bible by thousands of years) but the idea I have in my mind is something I came up with myself. I need to work on the wording, but I'm sure you'll get the gist...
If someone was treating your child, the way you are treating someone else, and you'd want that person to stop treating your child like that, then stop treating that other person like that.
Basically, if it's not acceptable to have your child treated that way, it's not acceptable for you to treat someone else that way.
Another saying I like is from the TV show 'Frasier'. It was said by Kelsey Grammer, as the titular character Frasier Crane. It was said when someone was considering how to deal with someone who was being nasty.
"No matter how low somebody else sinks, joining them there does not make things better"
I find it quite profound, and it's something I try live by every day. (I don't always succeed, but I try!)
As mentioned, the two young Christians also add that you could follow this question with 'what's the point of this if we all just die at the end?'
This question always makes me sad. To think that someone as young as 18 thinks their life is pointless, and being kind and good is pointless, unless there's a god and, I presume, an afterlife.
Why not be good and kind because it's better? A world where people are good and kind to each other is BETTER than one where we're there's fighting. Why not want to make the world you LIVE IN better? I don't get why religious people don't want to live in the best world possible, even if their god doesn't exist and even if there isn't an afterlife.
Live well, and do so because you'll be happier. Surely this doesn't need explaining.
4: Where does your morality come from?
This is a question born of pure naivety. It takes little research to find out how morality developed and why we see certain things as 'good' and other things as 'bad'.
Morality, as we know it, exists in many other animals, and pretty much all mammals. Non-human animals have compassion, empathy, a sense of fairness, and things that are acceptable and things that aren't.
We know how we feel when we're treated well, we know how we feel when we're treated poorly. We use these feelings to know how to treat others. Of course it differs between people and there are people who 'ignore' the feelings and treat people poorly anyway.
My morality comes from the same place as everyone else's. It's developed with evolution and functions on the grounds of compassion, empathy, logic, and discussion.
5: Where will you go when you die?
Ummm, no where. I'll be dead. I really don't get why people think there's somewhere to go when you die. I don't get why people think there's more anything after death.
I can understand when people say "Where will you go on your holidays?" or "Where will you go after work on Friday?" But "Where will you go when you die?" makes no sense, at all. We are our brains. We can transplant a liver, a lung, or even a heart, and still be us, but we are our brains. When we're dead, there is no brain, and if there's no brain, there's no 'us'. If there's no 'us' there's nowhere for us to go.
One thing I've found funny in my time of discussing atheism and religion, is that every single person who tells me what it's like to be dead...isn't. I'm told almost daily that if I don't believe, I'll regret it when I'm dead or that I've only got whilst I'm alive, because when I'm dead, it's too late. And, finally, that although I'm an atheist now, I won't be once I'm dead.
But, as I said, none of these people are DEAD! So how, exactly, do they know what 'post-life' will be like? Simply, they don't.
You know what though? What we do know is what it's like to be not alive. You see, we were all not alive for billions of years. The universe has been around for over 13 billion years before any of us were alive. Earth has been around for 4.5 billion years before any of us were alive. How did you feel during these billions of years? I bet you didn't even notice, right? I bet you had no idea that you weren't alive, and as the genius, Mark Twain said, you weren't the slightest bit inconvenienced by it.
So maybe we don't know what it's like to be dead, but we do know what it's like to be not alive. We've got absolutely no reason to think it'll be different when we're not alive again.
I'd like to thank these two young American Christians, Zac and Carl, for posing these questions. I think the more we atheists can talk to Christians, the better off we'll be.
Theists seem to ask this question thinking they've got the answer and if an atheists can't explain it in minute scientific detail, then 'god did it' must be the correct answer.
As with anything, though, if I don't know, but you have a guess, your guess isn't right by default. Whether I can or cannot explain how the universe came to be as it is, has no bearing on the existence of any gods or goddesses at all.
We know protons pop into and out of existence, without cause. We also know that the expansion of the universe means it was once all packed together. All the initial matter in the universe was contained in a tiny point we call the singularity, and we know we have a zero sum universe (IE the energy and matter are countered by dark energy and dark matter). What all this means is that it's possible for the universe to exist without having been created. The actual explanation is very long and technical, and I'm not sure anyone fully understands it. One thing I do understand for sure is that when talking about how the universe came to be as it is, no relevant scientists say 'here is the point where God must have created the universe.' If you know enough about the origin of the universe, you know we live in a 'no gods required' universe.
2: Where do you find your identity?
When I read this question, I simply thought 'In my wallet...' But that's not really what they're after. Thankfully they provide a bit of an explanation as to why they're asking each question. That helped here because I've no idea why they'd ask this if it wasn't explained.
The lads claim this is a great question to ask someone when you want to understand what matters to someone. Apparently it can also lead to a great conversation.
I don't think you find your identity, I think you create it. To me this question reinforces the idea that sometimes theists don't think for themselves. I'm guessing, but I'm confident, these guys would say they find their identity in church, or in the bible, or in the love of god. Thinking you create your own identity, however, shows the independent thinking of an atheist. It's not about being told by an authority (real or imagined) who you are, it's about realising that for yourself.
3: How Should we live?
Another kind of vague, oddly worded question from these fellas. Got to remember, they are young, so they're quite possibly thinking they've hit on the ultimate question, when, in reality, they simply haven't. In the explanation to this question they assume the answer coming back will be something like 'make the world a better place'. They then say they understand, but ask what's the point of doing this if everyone just dies at the end.
My answer isn't 'to make the world a better place'. Instead, I think if we live good lives, the world automatically becomes a better place. To the extent where it's possible, treat people with kindness and respect. Try to do no harm. Try to minimise any negative impact you have on the environment. Never set out to make someone's day worse. Help others when you're willing and able. I like the 'golden rule' (versions of which predate the bible by thousands of years) but the idea I have in my mind is something I came up with myself. I need to work on the wording, but I'm sure you'll get the gist...
If someone was treating your child, the way you are treating someone else, and you'd want that person to stop treating your child like that, then stop treating that other person like that.
Basically, if it's not acceptable to have your child treated that way, it's not acceptable for you to treat someone else that way.
Another saying I like is from the TV show 'Frasier'. It was said by Kelsey Grammer, as the titular character Frasier Crane. It was said when someone was considering how to deal with someone who was being nasty.
"No matter how low somebody else sinks, joining them there does not make things better"
I find it quite profound, and it's something I try live by every day. (I don't always succeed, but I try!)
As mentioned, the two young Christians also add that you could follow this question with 'what's the point of this if we all just die at the end?'
This question always makes me sad. To think that someone as young as 18 thinks their life is pointless, and being kind and good is pointless, unless there's a god and, I presume, an afterlife.
Why not be good and kind because it's better? A world where people are good and kind to each other is BETTER than one where we're there's fighting. Why not want to make the world you LIVE IN better? I don't get why religious people don't want to live in the best world possible, even if their god doesn't exist and even if there isn't an afterlife.
Live well, and do so because you'll be happier. Surely this doesn't need explaining.
4: Where does your morality come from?
This is a question born of pure naivety. It takes little research to find out how morality developed and why we see certain things as 'good' and other things as 'bad'.
Morality, as we know it, exists in many other animals, and pretty much all mammals. Non-human animals have compassion, empathy, a sense of fairness, and things that are acceptable and things that aren't.
We know how we feel when we're treated well, we know how we feel when we're treated poorly. We use these feelings to know how to treat others. Of course it differs between people and there are people who 'ignore' the feelings and treat people poorly anyway.
My morality comes from the same place as everyone else's. It's developed with evolution and functions on the grounds of compassion, empathy, logic, and discussion.
5: Where will you go when you die?
Ummm, no where. I'll be dead. I really don't get why people think there's somewhere to go when you die. I don't get why people think there's more anything after death.
I can understand when people say "Where will you go on your holidays?" or "Where will you go after work on Friday?" But "Where will you go when you die?" makes no sense, at all. We are our brains. We can transplant a liver, a lung, or even a heart, and still be us, but we are our brains. When we're dead, there is no brain, and if there's no brain, there's no 'us'. If there's no 'us' there's nowhere for us to go.
One thing I've found funny in my time of discussing atheism and religion, is that every single person who tells me what it's like to be dead...isn't. I'm told almost daily that if I don't believe, I'll regret it when I'm dead or that I've only got whilst I'm alive, because when I'm dead, it's too late. And, finally, that although I'm an atheist now, I won't be once I'm dead.
But, as I said, none of these people are DEAD! So how, exactly, do they know what 'post-life' will be like? Simply, they don't.
You know what though? What we do know is what it's like to be not alive. You see, we were all not alive for billions of years. The universe has been around for over 13 billion years before any of us were alive. Earth has been around for 4.5 billion years before any of us were alive. How did you feel during these billions of years? I bet you didn't even notice, right? I bet you had no idea that you weren't alive, and as the genius, Mark Twain said, you weren't the slightest bit inconvenienced by it.
So maybe we don't know what it's like to be dead, but we do know what it's like to be not alive. We've got absolutely no reason to think it'll be different when we're not alive again.
I'd like to thank these two young American Christians, Zac and Carl, for posing these questions. I think the more we atheists can talk to Christians, the better off we'll be.
Nicely written!
ReplyDeleteI like to pose the question back about who believers think "they" are, if anything but borrowed planet earth. They aren't in their environment, they are the environment. They have been stars, rocks, several forms of animal and animal feces, etc. I love asking adults when they got their driver's license. If it's been a reasonably long time it's often mind blowing to think that the majority of what was sitting in that car is not sitting and chatting with me right now. I then explain that I'm capable of feeling the exact same feelings of amazement from that, as they do from conditioning themselves to feel what they feel in a "holy" setting. It's then easy to chat about classical conditioning, and the fact that indoctrination of children before they have their "don't get in the van with the guy offering you candy" filter properly installed, is objectively child abuse. Particularly when stating things about original sin, repentance and hell. I always preface my conversations that religious topics are ideas only. If the person cannot separate themselves emotionally from their ideas, then I won't bother chatting about the topic. But if you've got a couple of hours and an open mind, cheers to a nice scotch and decent conversation.